PPG Envirobase (EHP) drying issues

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This topic contains 25 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Jayson Munro Jayson Munro 2 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 26 total)
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  • #48079
    Profile photo of Allen
    Allen
    Participant

    Just wondering if anyone is having issues with final cure? We are using EHP with either 3000 or 2000 clear and I am noticing that the finish is not curing completely, even after a few days with enough pressure you can fingerprint clear where base was applied, fully cured over blend (clear) areas though. Our painters swear they are reducing properly, using air blowers, proper flash times, etc. We are using heated DeVilbiss booths also. The main reason I found this problem is that our detailer was complaining that after buffing & detailing vehicles, even micro fiber towels are leaving fine scratches on finish. (New compressor w/aluminum air lines, self regenerating desiccant drier, pre-filters, etc. in use)

    #48081
    Profile photo of gunner
    gunner
    Participant

    I spray Standox watter so can’t say foresure, but I would say that they are applying to heavy of a coat or not flashing of beetween coats enough. How long have your painters been using it for?

    #48089
    Profile photo of Scott
    Scott
    Participant

    They need to become anal about dry times, making sure the base is dehydrated before clear, there is an accelerator you can add @ 5% or try the newest Clear just launched by PPG EC 530 in enviro or 6930 i think it is in the Aquabase line, it dryes much harder with excellent gloss retention.

    #48094
    Profile photo of john
    john
    Participant

    Your issues could be a number of things. I will list suggestions and procedures that will help you. First a viscosity test must be done for the EHP. You will need a din#4 viscosity cup and the time should be between 23-28 seconds. If it takes longer than that to drip you need to make sure the reduction of base coat is correct. Solids can be reduced 10%-20%- metallic 20%- tri coat 30%. There is a base coat adjuster T492 that can be used In conjunction with T494/T595 .it gives better base coat adhesion and helps in high humidity areas to flash color a little bit faster, a maximum of 10% t492 can be used when reducing color. ex, metallic color as follows : 10% T494- 10% T492 for a total of 20%– tri coat : 10% T492- 20% T494 for a total of 30%. If the color is not reduced properly it will affect flash times. A 100% sure way of knowing the color is dry is to use an infrared temperature gauge to check metal temperature. For instance, if the metal temp of the vehicle is 75 and the temp where color is, is 70, that’s telling you it’s not dry yet. When color is applied to a panel it cools panel about 10 degrees and as the water starts evaporating the color area temp equals to vehicle panel temp. Make sense? Another thing to ensure proper drying of color is to use air blowers and raise the heat to dry some of the water out of the color. Now as far as clear coat, if you’re going to be using DC3000 you must use DCH 3098 catalyst and i would only use the DC2000 on small parts such as mirrors, wheel flares, etc. you don’t really want a super fast clear coat over a waterborne product . The EC530 clear was designed specifically to go over EHP/AQUABASE PLUS. I’ve personally used it with the ECR75 (reducer ) and it flows out like no other. That reducer has a tail solvent that temporarily suspends the cross-link phase between clear and catalyst therefore it stays open longer and doesn’t set up as fast as let’s say DT series reducer. This info should help you but more importantly, you should contact either your jobber or your paint rep and address your concerns with them. One more thing, die back over areas of base coat is generally an indication that color was not dry and if those clears are not drying they’re not getting the proper mix ratio. Make sure painters are not mixing clear in a graduated cup with a ratio stick, that’ll be over – catalyzed clear and it will slow drying process. Take notice if you buy more catalyst than clear, if yes, too much catalyst is being poured. Best way to mix any coating is on the scale. If you have paint manager software program you can mix anything on the scale. Good luck

    #48104
    Profile photo of don prcotor
    don prcotor
    Participant

    It’s not the enviro. Even if it was semi wet when u cleared it, it would dry when u baked after clearing & @ most would just dye in or haze. I know from personal experience. Now some colors that a lol longer to dry, like red mets. & clean looking whites, but u can reduce those 5% more then usual. This bounds more like a clear issue, like improper mix. Both dc3 & 2000 or are fast drying clears, & the 2000 is more user friendly with the enviro as both can dry @ the same pace. Also after a couple of days the clear should be hard & the base dried. This really sounds like some one has use the wrong Hardner or too slow of a Hardner. I use both clears all the time, the most I have to worry about is hazing.

    #48107
    Profile photo of john
    john
    Participant

    Re-read his question, it’s dry on the blend panels and is still soft over base coat. The base coat is not fully dry. The only truth to your reply is that 2000 & 3000 are fast clears. They are not on the same scale with dry times either. DC2000 is a non bake air dry, out of dust within 10mins and ready to handle in under an hour, DC3000 is a bake capable clear, 9mins @140 metal temp,(when using dch3070 the bake temp is @120) with at least 30min cool down before handling . Air dry for DC3000 is 1.5-2hrs. You should not use a rapid clear such as DC2000 over waterborne. If you are having ” hazing” which is technically dieback, and only where color is, it’s obvious that the base coat is not fully dry. EHP is a great product and if painters do not follow SOP’s they will have problems. The finished product should look like a work of art with consistent gloss retention throughout when using EHP. I wouldn’t doubt that there could also be some mixing ratio issues with clear as i stated above. I’ve been using EHP since 2008 and i also know from experience. Hope that helps ya out

    #48108
    Profile photo of Jayson Munro
    Jayson Munro
    Participant

    Question for the OP,what gun and tipsize are you using?Are you putting on thick heavy coats of WB?
    Im not familiar with envirobase but I have used another major WB for 6 years.If you rush your WB coats and clear application I have seen it blush and change color,does this happen with ppg?

    #48109
    Profile photo of Scott
    Scott
    Participant

    Not enough info being given by the OP, best advice is to call in your rep and get him to help you with your particular situation, so many variables involved.

    #48110
    Profile photo of ryan brown
    ryan brown
    Participant

    Just fix the problem and use Sikkens!

    #48111
    Profile photo of don prcotor
    don prcotor
    Participant

    Jason I’ve never put it on that wet to have it happen, I had cleared it to soon, & have it die back, but never have I had it keep clear from curing. It may be possible that they are wetting It too much, not tacking before clearing, (if it was still damp u would leave a tax rag trail)but still after a few days, the clear should be dry, even after baking it. These clears are speed clears. & jackpot13 yes I know 2000 is an air dry clear, where as 3000 is both air dry & baking, bake 3000 & it’s almost as fast. didn’t mean for u to quote the psheets. U should try 2000 on enviro you might be surprised. I also know what cause diebacks, so I’m well aware that when that happens that the base wasn’t dry enough. Point being if it’s still wet & after baking & after a few days, it should had at worse dieback, not keep the clear from hardening. I know that the op said that the blend panel was cured, but that could of been they might have only put one coat of clear on it. But I could be wrong. It won’t be the first or the last time for me. & I have used enviro on & off since 2001.

    #48112
    Profile photo of don prcotor
    don prcotor
    Participant

    & if u use dc3000 u DON’T have to use dch3098, that is the slowest Hardner ppg has, & takes forever to dry, he’ll I don’t even use that in the dead is summer. But if u are, u are better off to use dc4000 with dch3070. That would bake faster & dry faster. The slowest I would use is dch3095.

    #48115
    Profile photo of john
    john
    Participant

    Lild, Not trying to get into a pissing contest here because I’m new to this forum but i know PPG. the release of the 3rd generation EHP (current system ) was 2007 so if you’ve been using since 2001, you were using 1st and 2nd gen system which was different. Current enviro is more advanced and the technology has changed a bit. I work for PPG and we do not recommend DC2000 over ehp. Technically the only clears that we recommend over ehp are global and ehp labeled lines, but who’s going to abide by that. Totally off topic but you can try the EHP EC800 which we would rather see used. Just trying to help out. If you’ve been using EHP since 2001 you probably know this. Those clears are too fast for water and there’s a reason they’re not 100% recommended

    #48116
    Profile photo of john
    john
    Participant

    Dude you have NO CLUE what you are talking about, NO CLUE AT ALL.. You need to be trained how to use these products and understand how they work. Say what you will, I’m done here

    #48117
    Profile photo of Jayson Munro
    Jayson Munro
    Participant

    [quote=”jackpot13″ post=36584]Dude you have NO CLUE what you are talking about, NO CLUE AT ALL.. You need to be trained how to use these products and understand how they work. Say what you will, I’m done here[/quote]

    Well that escalated into a bunch of useless info……… :stoned No need to get bent out of shape,if you work for ppg please stick around and share your expertise with us.One thing I would like to know is why they keep changing the enviro clears,they must be on their 4th or 5th version now and my company has had the same one for 8 or more years with no issues.

    #48118
    Profile photo of Carl
    Carl
    Participant

    Sometimes folks i found that when 1 person uses a product that way and another person uses it another way even if its not advised it can and does work as long drying and flash times are correct ! What im saying is we all push products a bit to get what we want from them and if it works for some then great but others will frown upon it !

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